Paul McCarron had it all on paper—a big job, big salary, and clear upward path. But somewhere along the way, the path started feeling... wrong. In this honest and grounded conversation, Paul opens up about what it’s like to wake up and realize the life you’re in doesn’t fit anymore—and what it takes to build one that does. We talk about the moment when the “default” life stopped working, how pressure can mask disconnection, and why leaders often wait too long to choose differently. If you’ve ever felt out of alignment or questioned if what you’re building is really yours… this one’s for you.
00:00 – Intro: When everything looks good but something feels off
02:45 – Paul's early leadership years: climbing without questioning
07:10 – The slow drift away from alignment
10:30 – The invisible toll of staying in the wrong place
14:00 – Making space for clarity when you feel stuck
17:45 – Permission to choose again
20:00 – Claire on the neuroscience of dissonance
24:30 – The quiet courage of walking away from “success”
28:10 – What Paul rebuilt—and how it fits better
32:40 – Signs you’re operating on autopilot
36:00 – Closing reflections: pressure, purpose, and powerful decisions
Follow Claire on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clairehayek/
Follow Paul on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-mccarron-demohal/
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Drifting, Choosing, and Building Something That Fits with Paul McCarron
[00:00:00] Claire Hayek: leaders don't fail. They drift. They build careers that look solid on paper, keep moving forward and still feel like something's off. Today's conversation is about what happens when you stop drifting. Take ownership of the choices in front of you and build something that actually fits who you are. If you've ever looked at your career and thought.
[00:00:26] How did I end up here? This episode will definitely land.
[00:00:40] Claire Hayek: Welcome to the NeuroLeadership Edge podcast. I'm Claire Hayek. This is the podcast for leaders who carry real responsibility and want to stay sharp, grounded, and effective Under.
[00:00:54] In today's episode, we're talking about drifting self-reflection and what it [00:01:00] actually takes to pivot without blowing up your life. We'll look at how identity, pressure, and choice shape leadership decisions and why clarity often comes later than we expect. My guest today is Paul McCarran, founder of Demo Health.
[00:01:19] Paul grew up in rural Ireland, built a career across sales, marketing, construction, and music, and spent years working inside large multinational companies before stepping into entrepreneurship. His story is not about a straight line or a perfect plan. It's about drifting, noticing the moment when drift becomes costly and choosing to build something more aligned professionally.
[00:01:49] And personally. Paul, welcome. Thanks very much, Claire. Thanks for having me. Well, very happy to have you here. I have so many questions for [00:02:00] you. I'm gonna have to try to manage the time here. So much to talk about. So you've used the word drift a few times when we, you know, we talked about this and yeah, we discussed the episode.
[00:02:11] And so why don't we start with this? Take me back to that period, that drift period. If you wanna say, what did drifting look like for you?
[00:02:23] Paul McCarron: That's, uh, a pretty hard question to answer, to be honest. I, I, I think it's probably the result of me being the youngest of seven kids. Um, and I was quite the distance between my next brothers, like eight years, so they were all very close to each other and then.
[00:02:40] Bit of a gap. And then there was me. So I always kind of just went with a flow of things and I think that kind of. Drifted into my personality if you want that. I tended to kind of not step up when I always wanted to and stuff like that. So I think like in in school, in college, you know, when I was finishing my first [00:03:00] degree, I still didn't have a clue what I wanted to do.
[00:03:02] I went in thinking I was coming out as a lawyer and you know. By year three as they were thinking not so sure laws for me. Maybe go somewhere, uh, some other way. Right. And, uh, yeah, I kind of fell into it. And one of my best mates, he, he, uh, was doing a master's in, uh, in marketing. So I thought, yeah, why not?
[00:03:20] So I went and I did that, but again, kind of drifted into it. So like life is. A little bit about going with the flow, but also like I think at a point then you need to kind of grab it by the neck and the scruffle, the neck and take it where you wanna go then and Right. It took me, it took me a while to get to that point, but I got there eventually.
[00:03:40] Claire Hayek: Well, this is why we're talking about this because it's quite interesting and I think a lot of our listeners probably can relate to. I think a lot of probably share your story in a way, and I, and the idea of talking about this today is to just normalize it because sometimes there's not one way to do, do something where there's not one way towards [00:04:00] success.
[00:04:00] Paul McCarron: Yeah. So
[00:04:01] Claire Hayek: we wanna unpack this today. So what were you, what was going through your head? What were you telling yourself at the time? Was it just like, oh, I'm just gonna try this. Oh, I'm just gonna try that. Oh, I, you know, I'm not in a, in a rush. Or was it like, oh my God, I gotta get my act together. I don't know what to do, so I'm just gonna choose something.
[00:04:18] I mean, what was really happening?
[00:04:21] Paul McCarron: It, it was kind of like, yeah, I need to get, I, I need to choose what the next step is. And it was coming at me pretty quick, so I just kinda went. Uh, that looks okay, I'll go do, go do that. So, and that kind of was a little bit like my early career as well was I fell into it, right?
[00:04:37] And then I ran with it, and then I got to a point where then I went, oh, I kind of need to do something. So I fell into something else and then and so on, so on. So it, you know, I'm all for going with the flow with life, but I think as well, if you have a kind of a plan or a goal to get there, I think it's, you know, that there helps you sort of your, your north star if you want, so that you've [00:05:00] somewhere to focus.
[00:05:01] And it doesn't matter if you do this big squiggle or anything that got there to get to right. But as long as you you kind of have a focus, I think, um, there's no right or wrong how to get there.
[00:05:10] Claire Hayek: And, and so, so was there, I mean, you, you know, I, I wanna zoom in more, right? Yeah. So was there a moment where you realized, you know, that drifting wasn't working for you, that it was costing you something?
[00:05:25] Was there like a moment? Um, yeah, I'm just curious.
[00:05:31] Paul McCarron: Yeah, like there was no kind of like, you know, light bulb moment that really hit me or anything I got there, but it was, you know, it was a feeling I'd been having for a while. Um, like I, I was like quite a successful in, in sales at that stage. I was in, in construction at the time selling power tools.
[00:05:49] I was very good at it. I could hit my, my, my quota, before I even got outta bed most mornings. Like, you know, because I had set up that way. I, it was easy for you? Yeah, it was [00:06:00] easy and, uh, comfortable and everything else, but I wasn't really fulfilled. I was, I had a lot of wasted time. I had a lot of kind of.
[00:06:14] Just, yeah, just not comfortable, not not fulfilling, I suppose is the right word for it. And, uh, and it, it took me kind of looking around at a few, uh, a few of my close friends and stuff I got there, what they were doing and their lives and, and things I. Sometimes I was ahead of them. I had a few friends, much, uh, uh, very far ahead of me as well.
[00:06:35] But it was a kind of like a mixture of that. And I said, oh, well, right. Am I content? Not really. Would it be content over there? I don't know, but it's worth a try, like, you know, kind of kind of thing. So it was more, I, I wanted, um, I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but I knew I wasn't happy by just kind of going with the flow anymore.
[00:06:57] And that's where I kind of went, okay, let's, let's take, [00:07:00] uh, a bit of stock on where I'm at, what I'm good at, where, you know, where I see gaps that I can start, uh, start sort of upskilling and stuff like that. And then, tick 'em off starts to start putting a plan together to tick 'em off.
[00:07:13] Claire Hayek: So it, it, I I basically, it was started to feel uncomfortable.
[00:07:18] You start feeling that discomfort. And from what I hear you saying, and, and that's actually when we look at brain science, when, when we look at how the brain works and a lot of us know this, that the brain looks for comfort and what's familiar. Yeah. And it's get it, it wants to keep us moving along that, those path that feel known, right?
[00:07:38] Because, you know, we've been wiring and firing those neural pathways probably for a long time. So the, the path of least resistance, right? So, uh. The brain will keep us there even when these uh, these comfort zones or family familiarities are no longer good for us or right for [00:08:00] us. Yeah. And what I see over and over is that people expect just all of a sudden the light bulb, right, to show up.
[00:08:06] You know, it's like, oh, this is not working for me anymore. And they expect this to show up first before, you know, we choose and maybe change directions. But the, the interesting thing here is that clarity usually arrives after discomfort.
[00:08:22] Paul McCarron: Yeah.
[00:08:23] Claire Hayek: And it comes when something feels misaligned enough or heavy enough that you're forced to pay attention and go, hello, I gotta stop here.
[00:08:32] What am I doing yeah. And that's when basically the fog starts to lift. It's interesting because the dis discomfort is that trigger and interrupts that pattern slows us down just enough to notice what isn't working anymore. And this is when everything kind of like you stop and reflect and go, okay, I'm realizing something here.
[00:08:54] Paul McCarron: Yeah.
[00:08:55] Claire Hayek: And you know, nobody wakes up one day and go, oh, I can see it now. [00:09:00] Yeah. It takes something, you know, that's, and that's ex
[00:09:02] Paul McCarron: and that's exactly it. And like you, you, you look like I am lucky enough that I grew up before social media really kind of took off. Uh, I got. The very tail end of it, uh, when I was like 18 and 19 and 20 and stuff, it was just starting at that point.
[00:09:19] And, um, I'm really glad I did because I look at like the young people today, and they're constantly getting hammered about what success looks like. You know? Mm. What you should be achieving, you know, you've got all these people, oh, get up at four o'clock in the morning. I go to the gym, I do all this.
[00:09:37] That would kill me. I'm not built for that. Like there, there's, I just, there's no way I could do that there. But that's what you know, everything has been hammered. Like, that's what you have to do to be successful. And that's bullshit. Like everybody, everybody's different.
[00:09:53] Claire Hayek: Absolutely. Right. I couldn't agree more.
[00:09:56] And actually a lot of the times when I'm, I'm, I'm talking [00:10:00] to clients, I'm talking to teams, to leaders. There's so much pressure on. That morning routine it's literally, I make a joke about it. I don't get me wrong, I'm not against morning routines, and I'm sure you're not, and people, if that helps you and serves you.
[00:10:15] Great. But if that morning routine is actually putting stress and pressure on yourself, how is that gonna serve you? It's actually putting you in survival or fight or flight mode. Your brain is not really performing properly. It's not giving you the energy. It's actually sucking your energy out. But because I have to be that way in order for me to be successful, and the interesting part is, and and, and neuroscience shows it and research shows, is that.
[00:10:43] A lot of people think big about how to have that discipline or to be successful. It's like this thing, you know, but it's the little things that you do little recess that you do how you, uh, uh, your, you know, your, your uh, positivity, your mindset, how [00:11:00] you switch from, uh, or handle pressure.
[00:11:03] How you, you are able to bring yourself. Back into your prefrontal cortex and out of the hijack of the amygdala, which is where the stress happens. And you know, when we, we get into fight or flight, these little resets that put you back in your, your CEO, your brain, CEO, the prefrontal cortex is how is like these, if you do these all day long.
[00:11:24] I mean, that replaces your morning routine. Put your morning routine on, on hold forever. Yeah. It's the, it's that resilience and being able, understanding how your brain works and how you react and being able to put yourself back in focus and in center and calm authority that should be your go-to as opposed to this big thing that we make it like.
[00:11:47] So unattainable and hard, so much pressure,
[00:11:50] Paul McCarron: right? Root routines are great and all, but what happens if you miss? Yes. Does that, does that ruin your entire week? Does it ruin your entire day? [00:12:00] Like, the guilt is real. Absolutely. Like, and, and that guilt could be, you know, anything from, oh, I didn't prospect.
[00:12:08] Okay. So prospect later, or you know, oh, I, I didn't, uh, I didn't, you know, I didn't do any strategy today. You know, whatever it might be. That was like, is part of your routine great to have it? But now don't become a slave to it because like, stuff happens and you need to be able to, going back, you need to go with the flow, but you wanna make sure that you're controlling where that flow's going
[00:12:34] Claire Hayek: Exactly.
[00:12:34] As opposed to it controlling you.
[00:12:36] Paul McCarron: Yeah.
[00:12:36] Claire Hayek: Um, this is really insightful, uh, Paul, uh. Here's a question for you. So a lot of people think, uh, in order to reinvent yourself, you need to burn everything down to the ground. I hear that a lot, you know, your story shows another way. So, what helped you move forward without that panic, reinventing everything?
[00:12:58] What was that driving [00:13:00] force? What was that thing that you, that kept you going? If you would choose a couple of things. I don't wanna say one. 'cause sometimes it's not as easy as one thing.
[00:13:07] Paul McCarron: Right. It isn't, but it kind of is at the same time for, for me anyway it was surrounded myself with people mm-hmm.
[00:13:16] That were where I aspire to be, and I surrounded myself with them. I had a look to what they were doing. Now I might like the way they were doing it, so I might look at a different way, but I was still trying to get to the same goal. So again, it was kind of like making sure I was. Surrounded by good people.
[00:13:37] Like my friends my close friends since, uh, like I, I've got mates since I was four that I still hang out with, you know, but, uh, amazing. Probably two of the most influential people that I have, I met in college. And they've always driven me like, you know, one of them. Crazy successful for any kind of way that you look at it.
[00:13:56] And he's always been very aspirational, but he's always been very [00:14:00] grounded in, in how he got there and why he got there. And I've asked him a few times and it's very telling as well, like, you know, what he thinks now given I think he's a little bit humble and he's one of those people that, uh, I was pretty con convinced You give him money, he'll make.
[00:14:17] A load of money back for you, you know? So he was always gonna be successful. But again, it was all about like not getting too overwhelmed by the small details. Just know where you wanna go. And then you'll figure it out how to get there and, uh, right. Sometimes you have to take a step back to go forward.
[00:14:37] And, you know, that's kind of what happened to me with, uh, with my career was that I, I realized, okay, I probably had to take a, a, a slight step back. It was more sideways step to get what I needed, which was bigger contracts and different thing, experience with that. Then I surrounded myself, well, who's gonna be able to gimme the best, um, the best thing.
[00:14:58] So I picked the company not [00:15:00] on what they were selling or what they were doing. I picked it on who was managing me. Hmm. Um, and and that per guy ended up my manager three times over two different companies. So,
[00:15:11] Claire Hayek: interesting. Look at that. So like, I, from what I get what you're saying, so you kept. What you kept is your network, your people that you chose to surround, who you chose to surround yourself with, and I responded
[00:15:24] Paul McCarron: that as well,
[00:15:25] Claire Hayek: right?
[00:15:26] I'm sure there's a whole bunch of other things you kept, but what did you let go of?
[00:15:31] Paul McCarron: What I let go with was probably the comfort jumping into an industry that I knew nothing about coming out of an industry. Okay. I jumped into that originally knowing nothing about it, but I had been in there quite a long time at that point.
[00:15:46] Mm. And I was a, an expert within, uh, within that space. So leaving that comfort was a bit of a. A bit of a jolt, you know, like I had people coming up to me asking questions, and I, I was the one [00:16:00] that I had to get, get answered. You know, I felt very, uh, uh, very green, you know, uh, when I made that step.
[00:16:08] But again, it's surrounding yourself by people the right people, going in the right direction, pulling in the same direction as you want to be,
[00:16:16] Claire Hayek: right.
[00:16:18] Paul McCarron: And so, so
[00:16:19] Claire Hayek: we're talking about demo hell here, right? Not yet. No, not yet. So hold on. So, so demo is your company now, and
[00:16:26] Paul McCarron: it's, yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:27] Claire Hayek: And, and you know, it, it, it came about from watching buyers and sellers struggle and in the same patterns over and over again.
[00:16:34] If I get, get this right, so. What were you seeing that made you say, you know what, there has to be a better way. So what was the motivator there?
[00:16:43] Paul McCarron: Again, demo hall. I am, I'm co-founder of Demo Hall. Right. And again, um, one of my co-founders is one of these guys that I hitched my, uh, my, my Hitch two and, and stuck with like, we've been working together now for oh seven years now.
[00:16:59] Okay. [00:17:00] And together we're. I bring things that he doesn't, and he very much brings things that I don't, and I think we work very well together. Like any feedback he gives me, I absolutely take it. But he's also, uh, very open to taking the feedback as well. So, Glen is a, a huge driving force behind, uh, behind demo hall, but he's not the, he is not one of these superstar, CEO.
[00:17:25] Kind of founders or he is very open to, to talking and uh, and getting the direction together. So he was very important. But we were working together, seeing really issues with what was out in the market for sales tools, driving buyers down particular areas, hiding information from them, you know, just.
[00:17:47] And knowing the modern buyer who basically, the days of gatekeeping information are gone. Um, the chat GPTs of the world paid to that. And if you don't sort of help the buyer with [00:18:00] how they wanna do, they're gonna find the information out somehow. It mightn't be the right information.
[00:18:04] That's the problem. And that's where we kind of discover, say, okay, there's nothing out in the market that's actually taking the Buyer'ss perspective. Right. But then also enabling like sort of sales to trust the process as well. 'cause us salespeople like to hold on for information. We like to silo it. We don't think anybody else can do it as well as we can.
[00:18:23] Right. All that, that, that stuff. So it was all about taking that melting. Pot if you want, and, and, and putting it together. And that, uh, that led us to demo.
[00:18:34] Claire Hayek: Okay. Really interesting. I wanna pick your brain on something. So when, when leaders are facing uncertainty, disruption, I mean, speaking of AI and everything else is happening in the world and how quickly it's moving or just when they're facing, when somebody's facing change, right?
[00:18:53] Yep. What do you wish these leaders understood sooner? [00:19:00]
[00:19:00] Paul McCarron: That they don't always have to be the smartest person in the room. In fact, they probably shouldn't be because if you are, you haven't hired properly. You know, so don't be afraid, like knowing your limitations, knowing your weaknesses, or. That's a strength of knowing your weaknesses.
[00:19:20] Absolutely. So you can go and you can go and find somebody that compliments them and has that, that difference of opinion. So yeah, if you, if you find yourself in the, the smartest person in the room, find yourself in your room.
[00:19:32] Claire Hayek: Yeah, definitely. I hear that a lot actually. And what I see, you know, I think a lot of leaders realize this, but they find it a bit difficult.
[00:19:42] To apply because typically, and I don't wanna put all leaders in, in one box, and by the way, when I talk about leaders, if anybody's listening here or watching us right now, um, the definition of leader is very wide in this, on, in this show. I'm not telling you about. C-suite only execs, [00:20:00] managers, VPs, directors, it's not about a title.
[00:20:02] Leadership is a trait. Uh, it's somebody that, that, that you know, uh, takes ownership that inspires, uh, that lead themselves well before they're able to even lead others. So you don't have to be in a high position exec position to call yourself a leader. And a lot of people think leaders, you know, you know, it's like, I'm not gonna call myself a leader.
[00:20:26] You know? So arrogant. No. If you're not leading yourself, who are you leading? So in a way I don't care what title you have, if you're listening to this, you're a leader because as human beings, we need to lead. Ourselves before we can lead anything else around or manage anything around us. And by the way it's not even in the work.
[00:20:46] Yeah. At work. It, it could be also in a personal setting or parenting or, uh, family friendships.
[00:20:53] Paul McCarron: Right. Different ways of doing it as well. You don't have to be, I'm gonna throw in a sports you [00:21:00] know, that shouting sort of aggressive captain that's on the field, like, you know. Yes, exactly. You don't necessarily have to be that because some of the best leaders were the ones that maybe didn't talk a lot.
[00:21:11] They showed how to do it, and then that's the calm
[00:21:14] Claire Hayek: authority that I'm always talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And that's something you build and you train. Some people have it naturally, but I'll be honest with you, most people don't. And it's something you train, you know, leadership can be taught literally.
[00:21:26] Uh, I mean it in a way, I, I hate to say taught, but really trained because it's all about the brain and how you train your brain. But, um, but my, my point with that is that, you know, you wanna surround yourself if you're the smartest one in the room. On what you said earlier, I totally agree with that.
[00:21:41] The only thing that I find that sometimes leaders struggle with is having smarter people, smarter people in the room, uh, because there's this element of control. Um, yeah. That they feel that if they're not, they can't control the room. And it's, I think two separate [00:22:00] things that a lot of people and a lot of leaders mistake and, and.
[00:22:05] I'm really happy you brought this up because we need to normalize this. This is how we grow, this is how we're better. We can't be good at everything. Otherwise, you know, might as well just work with me, myself and I why have a team around you or partners or stakeholders? Right.
[00:22:21] Paul McCarron: Yeah,
[00:22:21] Claire Hayek: very.
[00:22:22] Paul McCarron: Yeah, and I, and I agree and I, a lot of the time where leaders don't, don't feel comfortable 'cause they're, they feel they're losing that control.
[00:22:31] It's probably. Because they don't feel confident within themselves. They've got this kinda, you know, outward sort of persona, and then they can't be wrong. They can't seem to be wrong. And, that's the wrong way to look at it. Like the smartest people that I know are the ones that you know. They have ideas, right?
[00:22:53] But they're not rooted in beliefs because beliefs are very difficult to change. But if they get presented with the right [00:23:00] information, they'll go, yeah, okay, this is not the right way. And that's I have seen companies spend millions and millions and millions because one of the leaders won't change their mind, even though that's all the evidence is going against them.
[00:23:13] Claire Hayek: That that is, that's a great point. And actually that's a sabotage pattern. And this again, it's easy to sit here and, and talk about that and go, yeah, you know, that's not the way to do it. But what, what's happening in that person's brain or head or mind is that that's, that was always their survival mechanism.
[00:23:30] Ever since they were probably three years old, and I'm not talking because they had to control everything because their life. Outta control that you could be uh, raised in an amazing setting, a great family where you have confidence and everything and still be a controller, but it's just that it's one of your strength that eventually becomes something that is really slowing you down because now you are over abusing that strength to the point that you don't even recognize when you do it.
[00:23:55] So again, we talked about safety and doing things over and over again until they become [00:24:00] uncomfortable and that's when you wake up. But, um, this is basically the challenge most of the time that we see with leaders type A personalities that they struggle with is like, how do you not control if I'm not controlling this, it's gonna go to hell, you know?
[00:24:14] Yeah. This is one of the things that, you know, these uh, sabotage patterns that we work on, uh, that I work a lot with clients to rewire because. It's exactly what you said. This is what's really preventing you from coming up with this amazing idea, or listening or leaving room for innovation and creativity, uh, within your team.
[00:24:36] But that's a whole different conversation and I always run out of time. I'll jump in. I wanna jump in. Uh, it's, it's been just. So pleasant. I'm loving this and I'm, I'm, uh, I'm, you know, I, I surely hope whoever's listening is enjoying this as much as we are Paul. Right?
[00:24:51] Paul McCarron: Absolutely.
[00:24:53] Claire Hayek: Alright, let's jump into the rapid fires.
[00:24:55] So these are very short, 32nd answers.
[00:24:58] Paul McCarron: Nothing's ever short with me, Claire, but we'll [00:25:00] try like the best,
[00:25:01] Claire Hayek: I'll bring you back if you go too far. Great. Good. Good. Too long. Okay. Um, but really just go with it. Okay. Uh, three questions for you.
[00:25:09] Paul McCarron: Yep.
[00:25:10] Claire Hayek: The first one, a book conversation, an event or an experience that changed how you think?
[00:25:15] Paul McCarron: I'm gonna go with an event and I'm going to go with an event that I attended and I can remember it was a Celtic, a game friendly over in Australia and I attended with, uh, one of my best mates over there. And it was the first time we'd actually had a chance to hang out for a long time. And that was really, I had at that point had been.
[00:25:36] Thinking I wasn't comfortable and I was thinking about changing and I, he was like one of my, my valued advisors if you want. Right. Um, so it was a good chance to talk to him about it by how he was doing and all that kinda stuff. And honestly, I think that game probably changed my life in terms of, um, I kind of came out of that night going with a hangover in fairness.
[00:25:55] But once that cleared, then I was kind of going, okay. I know I have [00:26:00] to, what I have to do now, and that was kind of change this comfortable role and go for something with a little bit more, uh, bit more risk. Something clicked
[00:26:07] Claire Hayek: there that day. Yeah. That night or that evening. That's a very interesting all right, so moving on.
[00:26:12] One habit that keeps you grounded.
[00:26:15] Paul McCarron: I am going to go with a habit that I started doing after not doing it for a long, long time. I used to read books constantly and I stopped doing it for a long time,
[00:26:26] Claire Hayek: right? But now,
[00:26:27] Paul McCarron: every day before I start my day I will read 15 to 20 minutes. Now I'm going to say something controversial here.
[00:26:35] I do not read business books. That's not commercial. I make sure I sure that it is absolutely nothing to do with business. Okay? It's a novel. I sit there, I'm enjoying it. I get lost in it. 50 12. It just clears the mind. And when I don't do that for a couple of days, I notice my anxiety levels jump up. I'm a little bit more [00:27:00] skittish.
[00:27:00] I'm a little bit more less grounded, shall I say.
[00:27:03] Claire Hayek: There you go. Well, you found, you found the thing that grounds you and nurtures you and, and that's great. That's the most important part. The detail is a detail. All right, last question. One thing you're still learning. Everything. It's, I love the humility.
[00:27:22] Paul McCarron: I, yeah. Uh, listen, I'm a, I'm a non-technical tech founder, so I'm, I am learning quite a bit every single day. But I would say the biggest learning challenges I have come from my little guy. He's, uh, he's seven and, uh, and I'm trying to figure out how do I. Give him the chances that, uh, my parents, uh, afforded to me, um, without him getting any of my.
[00:27:50] Messiness or craziness sort of rolled into it. So yeah, that, that's probably the biggest, uh, learning, uh, learning that I'm doing at the minute.
[00:27:58] Claire Hayek: That's amazing. Well, [00:28:00] thanks for sharing all that with us. And I love the humility. What I really appreciate about Paul's story is how normal normal it is, you know, and how honest that's, I really, really enjoyed this.
[00:28:11] Remember, drifting isn't failure. Awareness is the turning point. And leadership starts when you decide to pay attention. And we've defined leadership here. So if you missed what leadership is, do rewind back to that, uh, maybe five minutes ago. Um, any final words quickly, uh, as we wrap up?
[00:28:31] Paul McCarron: I just wanna thank you for the opportunity.
[00:28:33] It was a really great, uh, a great chat and yeah hopefully, uh, there were some insights that people can, can maybe get a bit of clarity out of it.
[00:28:43] Claire Hayek: Thank you so much, Paul for, for actually agreeing to, to come on the podcast and sharing your story. Everybody listening, watching us. If this conversation resonated, do share it with someone who's navigating change.
[00:28:55] And, , always share the link in the description where you can reach [00:29:00] out. , , There's a lot of insights. There's a lot of, , tools that I share. And if you're watching this on video, you see a QR code, so do scan it. There's a lot going on. There's always things coming up, popping up. Via this link.
[00:29:12] You'll see what's happening. Do reach out if you have any questions and remember to lead boldly. Stay human. Stop being so hard on yourself and turn every challenge into a gift because we're here to learn. There's only learning and things are happening for you. So we can grow and learn together.
[00:29:33] See you all next week. And Paul, wonderful having you. Take care. Thanks so much. Bye.